[Coladam] Super ColecoVision/ADAM

Jim Notini jnoti2 at comcast.net
Thu Oct 25 23:36:45 CEST 2012


Yeah, sometimes you just have to take a step back and look at the big picture as well as make thorough comparisons with all the options that are available. Like I said, your comparison as to what a new "suped-up" CV2 would cost compared to a Yurkie modded CV was excellent and you should keep this in mind as things progress further along to use as a selling point.

I consider Yurkie a very good friend, but the facts are just that, THE FACTS, so if someone can buy a CV2 for roughly $150 compared to a fully modded YurkieVision for $180... well, the math is easy to do.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eduardo Mello 
  To: Jim Notini 
  Cc: coladam at adamcon.org 
  Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 1:50 PM
  Subject: Re: Super ColecoVision/ADAM


  I am glad that I could at least convince you to consider the idea. :D 


  On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Jim Notini <jnoti2 at comcast.net> wrote:

    Well, I asked "Why?", you answered "Why not?" and I have to agree with you more now about the possibilities of a CV2 offering the enhancements you mention seeing as the costs will be the same or slightly more to go that route than just making a clone of the CV using a combination of old-school and modern technology What really sells the discussion for me is the comparison of how much a Yurkie modded CV costs (which still relies almost entirely on all the old CV tech) compared to your proposed CV2.

    Hook, line and sinker... SOLD!      ;- )

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Eduardo Mello 
      To: Jim Notini 
      Cc: coladam at adamcon.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 8:33 AM
      Subject: Super ColecoVision/ADAM


      Jim, 


      Well, it was you that proposed a new sort of ADAM in your original message, so I just expanded on the concept based on ideas I have for the CV2 or whatever we call it.


      Now, I understand your concerns, we have already discussed that and I think you are being very realistic and have pretty good points.
      However you might be super-estimating things a bit in some areas. Let me clarify.


      First, this isn't a 16 bit caliber console as you mention below. Not by a long shot. As powerful as the V9958 may sound for example, it isn't an Amiga killer, neither is it more capable than let's say a Sega Master System. There is a 3rd chip in the V99 line, the V9990, now that is the Genesis meets the Amiga on steroid, but we are not talking about it here.
      Second, you are forgetting that all the new stuff can be used optionally by new games, most of them with very little effort. The V9958 offers hardware scroll, programmable color palette and 8 sprites per scanline. Those are all features seriously missing in the original TMS9928, and are features that could be used with little programming effort by any new game to create an enhanced experience if the hypothetical new console is detected for example.


      Sound stuff is another thing that can be used optionally. In fact nanochess is creating a new game that run on regular CVs and use the SGM second PSG if it detected, for improved music.


      That said, let's review your points...

      > While I commend your incredible vision concerning this new and improved CV
      > idea, I really do fear that there will be a VERY limited market for such an
      > item seeing as the retrogaming market for the CV, and especially the ADAM,
      > is very small already. Even with full backwards compatibility with the
      > current CV library and controllers (Roller Controller with it's odd-ball
      > power adapter would have to be supported as well via an adapter or the
      > inclusion of a compatible port on the new CV that would act as a
      > pass-through to the new power supply), a greatly enhanced CV as you have
      > listed out would probably draw the interest of only the hardcore CV fans and
      > a small amount of casual CV fans... especially in the price range of
      > $150-$175. 


      You kidding me. People are playing almost $100 to get their CV refurbished by Todd. Lot's of people...


      > It's not so much that I am against the idea, so much as I would
      > be very fearful of the amount of time and money that you would have to
      > invest in such a project. It's a huge risk in my opinion, not the
      > development of it because I am sure that you could pull it off, and I
      > commend you for even considering it.
      >
      > Some things that come to mind concerning all the suped-up specs of this
      > proposed new CV or CV2...
      >
      > - while all the spec improvements are awe-inspiring, without a library of
      > games that take advantage of them and a group of programmers lined up to
      > pump games out, it could be a tough sell except for the fact that it would
      > function as a perfect replacement to the aging CV.


      The big question how much it would cost to have an exact clone of the CV produced, versus how much to have all those improvements. If the price different is minimum, let's say, less than $50, then I don't see why don't go with the improvements, if just because we can.


      > I know you would have a
      > couple game ready by the time of launch, but how many other programmers
      > would be willing to write games for it especially seeing as there has only
      > been one programmer to date, besides yourself, willing to develop a MegaCart
      > game in all the years that it's been available although 2 more (Nanochess
      > and Mystery Man) are close to having their MegaCart games released. 


      Actually CollectorVision Mario Bros is also a MegaCart. 


      > Aside
      > for the fact that the CV2 would be backward compatiible with the CV, I would
      > be very weery of purchasing it with only one person supporting it with new
      > games that take advantage of it's enhanced hardware features. Even then, I
      > don't know how interested I would be in these "improved" games seeing as
      > they just wouldn't be the CV style and feel anymore, it would be more on the
      > lines of MSX2, Amiga, ST, Super NES or Genesis.


      We surely don't get as far as Super NES/Genesis capabilities. But again remember the enhanced features that can be used optionally.

      > - If I or someone else wanted a vastly improved gaming system, wouldn't it
      > be more logical to just pickup a SuperNES or Genesis at ridiculously low
      > prices and then have access to either of those system's game libraries which
      > number in the 1000s. Most loose carts and even CIB can be had for dirt cheap
      > and then there is the option of using their versions of MultiCarts /
      > Everdrives. Again, because of the easy availability of all these "newer than
      > CV" retro systems, it could prove to be extremely hard sell for a CV2. The
      > main advantage the CV2 would hold is compatbility with all existng CV warez,
      > which leads me to believe that a more simple design concentrating on the
      > improving the CV's main weaknesses of Video Output, Power Supply, Controller
      > ICs, overall aging of components, etc.would be the more feasible way to go
      > either as a replacement board or as a new system.


      A valid point, but we get again to the matter of total production costs. I checked with my sources in China for example, and they are some of the best out there, they can get you any NOS chip next day, and new V9958s are now cheaper than TMS9928, actually half the price. Besides the V9958 has a much improved RGB video output. So why would I pay more for something when I can get some other that is half the price, has better video quality, more features? Even if I don't touch any of the new features, it is still a better buy option. Z80 is another example. It is much easier to get a PLCC 8MHz Z80 today than look for NOS 4MHz DIP Z80. So why don't take advantage of that and have the option to double the CV Z80 speed by software, even if it never get used. I understand your point if it was a matter of paying more for stuff you are never going to use, but how about paying less for stuff you are never going to use but still backward compatible?

      > One example that comes to mind is the F18A by Matthew Haggerty. I guess I
      > should re-read all the enhancements that it provides before using it as an
      > example, but it seems to me that the only function it will ever provide when
      > installed in a CV or ADAM is improved video output via VGA. Will any CV
      > programmers support it and it's enhanced capabilities especially seeing that
      > maybe ten CV owners have purchased one and I know with 100% certainty that
      > there will not be any ADAM specific software written to take advantage of
      > it's features especially seeing as I only know of one person, Tempest, that
      > has one.


      We are talking about a VDP replacement that costs as much as an ADAM itself, not a very good comparison I think. The cost/benefit ratio is very low, as it solves a single problem at a very high cost.

      > As far as the listed ADAM enhancements,  very cool to even consider them,
      > but all of these proposed enhancements like 16Mb RAM, Ethernet, etc. would
      > more than likely go unused. It's actually pretty awesome to even consider
      > having such things available on the ADAM, but again, when it all boils down
      > to it, the average person in the retro scene just want to play games on all
      > this old gear, not perform any serious computer tasks, and any prospective
      > new hardware should focus on making this a possibility. So what the ADAM
      > World really needs most is an ADAMnet SD Drive like the one developed by
      > Else a couple years ago but that uses a menu program to control mounting and
      > unmounting of Disk/DDP Image Files versus Else's method of using DIP
      > Switches.


      Don't tell you guys don't create new stuff for the ADAM? I mean, have you been playing a half dozen Super Games for 30 years?
      The V9958 80 columns text mode is exactly the same as the TMS9928, just... with 80 columns. So applications can be easily ported. Don't you have DOSes or anything? CP/M stuff?

      > Whatever route you decide to take, I know the end result will be an amazing
      > product and I wish you the best of luck. Maybe I am just too cautious when
      > it comes to matters like this or prefer to keep things simpler.


      Well, thanks for the kind words. Again, I understand your points, I think they are valid concerns. But if we can produce something that is better for about the same price as it would cost to produce a clone (because no matter if it is V9958, TMS9928, 4MHz or 8MHz Z80s, this is all very old tech, you know), then I think it is worth a shot.


      Eduardo



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